Opinion on Hybrids.....

[Andrew]

Natural hybrids do occur between many species of plant and animal worldwide. Examples such as Cattleya guatemalensis (C. skinneri x C. aurantiaca) are recognised as naturally occuring hybrid orchids, and as such, C. guatemalensis has a valid scientific name of its own. It is also highly likely that natural hybrid occurences over the milennia have led to species diversity in many habitats, with many hybrids going on to breed true and forming their own species population/s.

However, humans have always had an inherent fascination with forcing the hand of nature, and seeing just how far they can push it.

[fishdance]

While some of the more vocal members have made their views known, it is pretty obvious to me that the large majority of average fish keepers, fish producers and fish wholesalers do not share these sentiments. Commercial fish farms are constantly and actively trying to produce new fads. Fish wholesalers and suppliers are actively trying to produce and promote new markets, the average fish keeper is always interested in trying new fish types and learning new things. Why.... because that is what most fish keepers want. (I am not talking about the members here).

Aside from all the usual opinions often brought up, what are some benefits of hybrids?

* There would be much less pressure on wild caught fish populations for a start.

* Fish collectors could become hybrid fish producers and have more self control over prices and markets helping poorer economies. If they simply produce captive bred fish of the exact same species, there will always be a ceiling price where it is cheaper and easier to catch wild fish.

* Farm produced stock greatly reduces seasonality and increases reliability of supply. There are inherent benefits of production if you can manipulate at a gene level. Economics, disease control, colour, farm management practices, behaviour, etc.

* Fish farms could produce sterile stock which has less chance for feral populations and gene pool contamination of native fish species.

* Imagine you could import ANY fish species you wished because they are all farm bred in certified clean disease free environments and they were unable to reproduce. Mimimal to nil bio-hazard risks!

Taken a step further, fish keeping could be more popular to the general public if hybrid fish are produced to fulfil specific markets. Imagine someone who liked frontosa for colour or behaviour but only had a 60cm tank. I would buy a 4cm frontosa! For those tank buster fans, imagine a neon coloured Pacu? Or schooling plecos or goldfish with the colour of marine fish.

I am not asking people to change their opinions or beliefs just as I am not interested in getting into personal arguements over right and wrong but it is important to realise hybrids are quite mainstream and with good reasons. It is also important to realise that the classifications that divide pure species and hybrids are simply man made classifications. What if there was a new ruling that classed all lake malawi fish as one single species for example? Suddenly all these divisions disappear. This same hybrid discussion is not limited to fish species alone.

Instead of arguing against hybridisation, why dont people argue FOR some type of recognised pedigree or purity system? Instead of complaining that a shop or breeder is selling (knowingly or unwittingly) hybrids, why dont people set up a system of being able to buy pure species if that is what is important. This has been done in most other pet codes.

Just some food for thought.

[yellow]

Just some food for thought.

alright, i thought about it, and this is what i come with.

While some of the more vocal members have made their views known, it is pretty obvious to me that the large majority of average fish keepers, fish producers and fish wholesalers do not share these sentiments. Commercial fish farms are constantly and actively trying to produce new fads. Fish wholesalers and suppliers are actively trying to produce and promote new markets, the average fish keeper is always interested in trying new fish types and learning new things. Why.... because that is what most fish keepers want. (I am not talking about the members here).

of course they are and of course they do, but your referring to business's whose sole intention is to make money. they dont speak for the hobby at large, theyd like to though. when a naive young newbie walks through the door of an lfs looking a new fish, of course the retialer is going to try and sell him the dearest fish they possibly can; its good business. but that doesnt mean that its what people necessarily want.

* There would be much less pressure on wild caught fish populations for a start.

how if someone wants something that cant be bred in captivity, then no weird or wonderful hybrid will change that. its like ordering a steak and getting fish instead. sure, its nice, but its not what you want. if someone wants the latest L number to be indentified, then theyre not going to settle for a cheaper version; even if it meant saving the environment. honestly, how many humans care about that.

* Fish collectors could become hybrid fish producers and have more self control over prices and markets helping poorer economies. If they simply produce captive bred fish of the exact same species, there will always be a ceiling price where it is cheaper and easier to catch wild fish.

this is like saying ill give up work to take up gambling. sure, you might hit it big here and there when you produce a new strain that soemone wants, but what happens if you never produce that strain, or the one that was popular last week no longer is. if you try and run a business of fads, your doomed from the start. and what happens to all the fish that are produced if the market suddenly shifts to a new trend instead of producing somehting that you wouldve always recieved a base rate for, you end up with a product thats virtually worthless. a million people wanted clown fish when finding nemo came out; where do you think all of those people are now, id hate to be an lfs relying on thier business.

Farm produced stock greatly reduces seasonality and increases reliability of supply. There are inherent benefits of production if you can manipulate at a gene level. Economics, disease control, colour, farm management practices, behaviour, etc.

all of this can be done with the species that already exist, its not somehting thats specific to hybrids.

Fish farms could produce sterile stock which has less chance for feral populations and gene pool contamination of native fish species.

all of this can be done with the species that already exist, its not somehting thats specific to hybrids.

Imagine you could import ANY fish species you wished because they are all farm bred in certified clean disease free environments and they were unable to reproduce. Mimimal to nil bio-hazard risks!

it sounds good but its tainted; why would i want a fish that i cant breed. what most hobbiests stick around for is the challenge of breeding.

Taken a step further, fish keeping could be more popular to the general public if hybrid fish are produced to fulfil specific markets. Imagine someone who liked frontosa for colour or behaviour but only had a 60cm tank. I would buy a 4cm frontosa! For those tank buster fans, imagine a neon coloured Pacu? Or schooling plecos or goldfish with the colour of marine fish.

so its alright to play god if it suits our needs. alright, but its a slippery slope ;and not one id like to traverse. i dont believe ANYTHING should be exploited for monetary gain.

I am not asking people to change their opinions or beliefs just as I am not interested in getting into personal arguements over right and wrong but it is important to realise hybrids are quite mainstream and with good reasons. It is also important to realise that the classifications that divide pure species and hybrids are simply man made classifications. What if there was a new ruling that classed all lake malawi fish as one single species for example? Suddenly all these divisions disappear. This same hybrid discussion is not limited to fish species alone.

Instead of arguing against hybridisation, why dont people argue FOR some type of recognised pedigree or purity system? Instead of complaining that a shop or breeder is selling (knowingly or unwittingly) hybrids, why dont people set up a system of being able to buy pure species if that is what is important. This has been done in most other pet codes.

they have, its called the aceforums and the nswcs. but unfortunately, the call of money is much louder then the feeble voices of a few lone purists.

im obviuosly against it, but only because i dotn trust humans to police it. two many of the speceis i love have been destroyed for, and by, people that are generally only in the hobby for a short period. and unfortunately, when they leave they dont take the mess they created with them. instead, they leave it there for the rest of us to deal with.

[E4G13M4N]

I agree with pretty much with all of Yellows comments, most of the hybrids produced over seas by the so called fish farms are only in it for the money not the preservation of the pure species.

Most of those fish that have been bred over seas cant be imported legally as hybrids but quite a few have been smuggled in, by people with the intention to exploit them for monatury gain so again how does that help the pure strains.

People may accidently produce hybrids in their tanks so unless we educate them they would never know.

Try finding a pure red devil, midas cichlid or fenstratus just to name a few in Australia, how were these fish protected while all the hybridisation has been going on

[Cichlabxr]

What if there was a new ruling that classed all lake malawi fish as one single species for example?

Its not quite that simple. You would, I believe, have some argument for natural hybrids v subspecies.

But as for one species in Lake Malawi.

There is a topic on here "Crossbreeding" you can read that but just a couple of points.

A species has been defined as a phylogenetic continuum that has become so differentiated that it has lost the ability to procreate with other life forms that have taken different evolutionary courses

J. W. Jamieson Biological Diversity and Ethnic Identity: Changing Patterns in the Modern World

A central goal of evolutionary biology is to identify the genes and evolutionary forces that cause speciation, the emergence of reproductive isolation between populations. Despite the identification of several genes that cause hybrid sterility or inviability—many of which have evolved rapidly under positive Darwinian selection—little is known about the ecological or genomic forces that drive the evolution of postzygotic isolation

A Single Gene Causes Both Male Sterility and Segregation Distortion in Drosophila Hybrids

Nitin Phadnis* and H. Allen Orr

Farm produced stock greatly reduces seasonality and increases reliability of supply. There are inherent benefits of production if you can manipulate at a gene level. Economics, disease control, colour, farm management practices, behaviour, etc.

A very good argument for food fish and one constantly used but then you are getting into GM.

Taken a step further, fish keeping could be more popular to the general public if hybrid fish are produced to fulfil specific markets. Imagine someone who liked frontosa for colour or behaviour but only had a 60cm tank. I would buy a 4cm frontosa! For those tank buster fans, imagine a neon coloured Pacu? Or schooling plecos or goldfish with the colour of marine fish.

This is genetic engineering /modification and not hydridisation. A whole new kettle of fish pardon the pun.

Wasn't going to get into this but keep coming back to edit. Last One. If you really believe we can advance fishkeeping by trying to improve on nature (something I believe we can't do, definitely not as far as beauty is concerned) think again. It takes a bit of a committment to keep your tank,water and therefore your fish healthy. Thats why people don't do it. Dying fish ,stunted fish tends to put people off.

Just my five cents worth. more like a dollar now.

[fishdance]

This is a discussion, pure and simple. I am not trying to change peoples minds, tell people how to think or decide what is right and wrong but simply provide reasons why there are so many hybrids and why sometimes they might be a good thing. There is not much point having a discussion if everyone thinks the same way.

There are many papers on divergent and convergent species. Many scientists are using population studies rather than specific species now to avoid some of the pitfalls we have touched on. There have been many reports of natural hybrids too. Fish collectors on Lake Malawi accidently losing stock in different areas for example. I dont really want to get hung up on what is a species, sub species, variant etc, I prefer to address the issue of hybridisation generally.

GM, sterilisation, hormone inducement, selective breeding etc are all useful tools being used now so why not use hybridisation as well? This is just another aspect of fish keeping.

For those which like breeding fish then what is the difference between line breeding within a man made arbitary group and cross breeding between these groups? I imagine hybrids would be much more challenging!

Fish farming and supply is very much driven by the consumer wants. Even wild caught species fall in and out of favour. Having the ability to manipulate fish more would allow farmers to try to keep up with changes.

I have already suggested ways to keep and maintain pure species and am happy to hear more ideas.

[yellow]

There have been many reports of natural hybrids too.Fish collectors on Lake Malawi accidently losing stock in different areas for example.

thats not a naturally occuring example, human stupidity caused that; all you have there is another example of humans interfering with nature and not giving a toss. . the fish went overboard, oh well its not our problem.

For those which like breeding fish then what is the difference between line breeding within a man made arbitary group and cross breeding between these groups?

because line bred species are still theyre own species;and they can be bred back to their own species without ruining the bloodlines for the entire community. for example, most of the fish i keep are line bred. i keep what i think are the best fish from my spawns, then i breed them back to other good quality specimens to produce the best fish i possibly can. whats the difference between doing that and producing hybrids you ask; well, i can still take my fish to the shop, and say that theyre jaguars, or theyre this, or theyre that, and people can then buy them and take them home knowing that what they have is true. with the way things are at the moment, you cant do that with a trimac or a synsphilum becasue the same cant be said. if cross beeding didnt affect the hobby then i wouldnt care what people did, but it annoys me that i now cant keep what was once a beautfiul fish in this country because a couple of people wnated to make a few lousy dollars; then gloss over it by saying that its the challenge of breeding them that made them do it, please.

I imagine hybrids would be much more challenging!

how so

Having the ability to manipulate fish more would allow farmers to try to keep up with changes.

but then what happens to the millions of fish they produce that cant keep up; maybe they should go in lake malawi too

I have already suggested ways to keep and maintain pure species and am happy to hear more ideas.

what new hobbiests need to realise is that the americans( and some others)that you see throughout most of your lfs's and the hobby in general often come from one pair or colony owned by one person. the lines of purebred stock arent as abundant or diverse as i wish they were, and they can be quickly lost if we pollute them. its sad when the first thing i ask after seeing a picture of a beautiful sysnphilum in the photography forum the other day is "do you own that fish now". heres the reply

old one , but only about 3 years ago

thats how long it took to destroy them in sydney with only a few peope dealing in them. i wonder how long itd take if it was widely accepted

and to those who say breeding hybrids is all about the challenge, then why do they always cost a fortune. surely if it was done "just for the challenge", the money side of things would therefore be irrelevant; or is trying to sell them for vast amounts the challenge of which you speak.

[Rod54]

I personally prefer fish that are the best example of what nature intended.....but there are millions of fish sold each year that don't fit that criteria.....and they wouldn't be breed if they couldn't be sold

Asians have turned hybrids into an art form....I recently was in China and saw many flowerhorns that were spectacular desirable fish....I'd much rather one of these fish that an electric yellow that was pure but so inbreed that it was more brown than yellow

Shame is....there is no real value in well breed fish.....people will pay big money for Electric Blue Jack Dempseys...that are really very poor fish genetically....whilst it would be hard to give away a well breed normal JD

Whilst away I saw a 4foot tank containing 50 fully grown bright red parrot cichlids with their tails amputated....I wasn't impressed....but everyone else in the dinner party thought it was spectacular

so pure genetics is only appreciated by a minority....unfortunately.

[yellow]

I recently was in China and saw many flowerhorns that were spectacular desirable fish....I'd much rather one of these fish that an electric yellow that was pure but so inbreed that it was more brown than yellow

thats understandable, but its an unfair comparison;being that youre comparing the best of one with the worst of another.

Shame is....there is no real value in well breed fish.....people will pay big money for Electric Blue Jack Dempseys...that are really very poor fish genetically....whilst it would be hard to give away a well breed normal JD

but should there be. should the value of something be purely based on what its worth?

but everyone else in the dinner party thought it was spectacular

yeah, but the uneducated often find things spectacular

so pure genetics is only appreciated by a minority....unfortunately.

if being part of the in crowd means cutting the tails of fish, ill gladly stand alone with my crappy purebreeds; but im just a bit wierd that way.

i guess the almighty dollar wins again yay for humanity

i think i might change my signature to resident lone idealist.

[Rod54]

Whilst I agree with your ideals Yellow

I accept reality and to a great extent on a forum such as this....you are preaching to the converted

The industry that helps make our hobby affordable unfortunately makes a lot of money out of "New fish"

Given current legislation that prohibits imports of "New" species.....the big money is made by modification of the Legal species....by all sorts of methods

All we can do is take control of our own fish rooms....what we own and what we breed....the rest will do the same whether we like it or not.....

[yellow]

All we can do is take control of our own fish rooms....what we own and what we breed....the rest will do the same whether we like it or not.....

agreed

I accept reality and to a great extent on a forum such as this

i want to join you rod, i really do, but i just cant accept reality in any given circumstance, any one that knows me will tell you that .im just far too stubborn, and i wont give up, regardless of whether im in the minority

you are preaching to the converted

ive never been able to stop myself doing that either.

[Citypainter]

One of my favourite cichlids is a hybrid.

And most of the old blokes and ladies here have kept them and some still do.

Its half citronellis and half labiatus, (Spelling) I am just going by old memories. However I do still have one.

Lots of newbies love them and they are accepted by everybody.

Red devil

[genetik_defekt]

Did you see me write it was a waste of my time? no?! then dont assume to know what im thinking.

What makes you think I was talking about you Yipp-e? and you are telling me not to assume?

I never assumed anything. you posted directly below me, in reference to what i said.

[eckies]

Did you see me write it was a waste of my time? no?! then dont assume to know what im thinking. As for making it a sticky thats pointless too because no matter what newbies always ask the same questions, on every forum in regards to everything that interests them, rather then searching things first. I did it when i was a newb, you did it because your a newb and the newbs who follow will do it.

Would you rather Newbies be around and ask the questions that need to be asked, help influenced them and help them learn or would u like the "newbie" to not ask and think that it is ok and sumthing that is diffrent from the normal fish that he has seen in the shops.....

[fishdance]

I think there will always be a demand for hybrids just as there will always be a demand for pure species. At the end of the day, the more choices of fish selection, the better it is for most people and I think this is a good thing.

Why dont those shops and pure strain societies put some energy into better marketing... there is no reason why pure strain fish should be cheaper than a hybrid. At the same time, there should be steps for certifying pure strains and people can choose whether these are worthwhile or not. As has been mentioned several times, commercial fish farms and suppliers need to make a profit. If getting certified allows them to have better profit margins then many would do that (I feel ?). Many do try to achieve a disease free certification for example.

[eckies]

Why lock the thread up? If it is a waste of your time to post about this then dont. Not everyone on here knows the consequences of non pure fish in our hobby, so I say, while its civil let it run its course

Josh

Did you see me write it was a waste of my time? no?! then dont assume to know what im thinking. As for making it a sticky thats pointless too because no matter what newbies always ask the same questions, on every forum in regards to everything that interests them, rather then searching things first. I did it when i was a newb, you did it because your a newb and the newbs who follow will do it.

Would you rather Newbies be around and ask the questions that need to be asked, help influenced them and help them learn or would u like the "newbie" to not ask and think that it is ok and sumthing that is diffrent from the normal fish that he has seen in the shops.....

[SydneyMike]

Why re-post the same text?? He kinda had a valid point, or at least, you didn't provide any meaningful response to it.

[yellow]

Lots of newbies love them and they are accepted by everybody.

i agree dave but thats becasue we dont have a choice. the two were once independant of each other though; which is what well be saying about so many other species in years to come.

it just saddens me to know that hobbiests in the future wont be able to keep the fish that i once did, all so that some can pursue what i consider to be no more then a get rich quick scheme; and you know how they turn out

oh well, at least we'll all be rich. and heres me thinking thats what we all have jobs for.

[Citypainter]

Lots of newbies love them and they are accepted by everybody.

i agree dave but thats becasue we dont have a choice. the two were once independant of each other though; which is what well be saying about so many other species in years to come.

it just saddens me to know that hobbiests in the future wont be able to keep the fish that i once did, all so that some can pursue what i consider to be no more then a get rich quick scheme; and you know how they turn out

oh well, at least we'll all be rich. and heres me thinking thats what we all have jobs for.

After 26 years of house painting and not getting rich, I wonder if I could cross a swordtail with an with a guppy and have opposing tails for twice the colour.

If I am sucessfull I will quit painting.

I will meet you in the carpark of petlink with your cut

[yellow]

After 26 years of house painting and not getting rich, I wonder if I could cross a swordtail with an with a guppy and have opposing tails for twice the colour.

If I am sucessfull I will quit painting.

I will meet you in the carpark of petlink with your cut

no youve got it wrong dave. you have to cross a guppy with a sword tail if you want the big money, and if we're going to be partners, i want it 60/40 my way; cause the guppy/swordtail thing was my idea; but to keep it fair, ill still let you do all the leg work. ring me when its done , or better yet, just drop the money off to me. and be quick to please because ive already made a downpayment on a ferrari

[eckies]

HAHAHA!!

[Citypainter]

The cheques in the mail.

[yellow]

[Evo]

Ok guys i just made 1,000000000 x 10^23 dollars by crossing a guppy with a lungfish.. This is what i got

I call it the DINOSAUR FISH First 10 members to call get one free,

[Cichlabxr]

You didn't include your phone number

Bet you're wondering why the phone hasn't rung hot